06 Nov 08 Forum

Post edited 7:49 pm – March 11, 2010 by ThomasF
Post edited 7:49 pm – March 11, 2010 by ThomasF

Hi,

when I discovered a Vortexbox Player is released, I already saw all my dreams come true.

Buy an VBA and that's it. So I thought.

But I wanted to try first.

So I installed VB 1.2 on some older PC (P4, 3GHz, 1GB) and found that even with Vortexbox 1.2, there is a short pause or overlap or whatever, when one track ends and another starts. At least when there is no gap between the tracks, like on live recordings.

Since I don't have any experience with music streaming I am asking myself:

Is that just a bug, which I consider quite normal in such a new piece of software…

Or, much worse, is this what Squeezeserver can deliver from Vortexbox and considered normal?

Or, third possibility, is my hardware too weak?

Any advice really appreciated! Should I buy an appliance anyway? No, not before I know for sure.

Thanks

Thomas

Post edited 9:31 pm – March 11, 2010 by ThomasF

Thank you.

Downloaded and installed Softsqueeze 3.8, but the problem remains the same.

To me it seems like the distortion appears a fraction of a second before the actual end of the track/file.

Is this (Softsqueeze) exactly how a real Squeezebox would behave when connected to that Squeezeserver on the Vortexbox?

Is 3GHz/1GB not enough? Or maybe something went wrong with the ripping..

Or maybe just nobody else cares…

I double-checked and played the CD on my stereo, and there's no such thing as a 'hickup' (that really best describes it).

I have a live album that was ripped to FLAC on a VortexBox Appliance. When I play this album on VortexBox Player, there is a very slight interruption in the sound between tracks — a fraction of a second.  I would not call it distortion.  I don't find it objectionable.

When I play the same album on my Squeezebox Duet, there is no interruption in sound between tracks — the transition is seamless.

So the VortexBox Player doesn't give perfect gapless playback, but it's very good.  I wouldn't worry about it.

Post edited 2:19 pm – March 12, 2010 by Ron Olsen

Maybe you should consider buying a real hardware player from Logitech — they all support gapless playback.

Post edited 4:00 pm – March 15, 2010 by ThomasF

Update:

I tried this on another 3MHz P4.

Same behaviour, but I noticed that the gap is sometimes more, sometimes less noticeable. I cannot live with the worst case, but there are cases when it really doesn't disturb at all.

Maybe a P4 is really just not enough.

All I want to run on this machine are Squeezebox server and the VortexBox player.

Does anyone know which services on the VB can be stopped without influencing these two programs? Oh, and how?

Thanks,

Thomas

. . .

I sent an email to Max Kellerman, author of VortexBox Player and lead developer of mpd, to ask about the possibility of implementing perfect gapless playback on VortexBox Player. I haven't heard back from him yet.

Hi Ron,

With VBP, I do not know if you are following squeezeslave these days.  The Logitech-supported players had a recent bug whereby they stopped functioning if the user changed sources from local to Internet radio or from one radio steam to another.  Discussion is at
https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14740
Included there is a detailed discussion of where and when the problem arose, and proposed corrections for both the server and client.  Below, I copied a couple of the comments from Adrian, who found the bug and solution, and Ralph, who has released squeezeslave Windows and Mac test builds that fix the problem.

Adrian’s post includes the code that fixes the player.  Are you, Andrew, or anyone interested in implementing this test fix for Linux and the VortexBox?  I am interested in that fix because I believe that the Logitech-supported player did sync with hardware players and I want to use a VortexBox hosted player.  Unfortunately, I am incompetent to implement it.

Additionally, I wonder if the root cause of this bug may be related to why the VortexBox Player will not sync with hardware players and the hiccup between tracks.  When you wrote Max about hiccup, did you ask regarding the possibility of VBP sync?

I appreciate the explanations you include with problem analysis and solutions on this forum.  Even when I do not have a particular problem, I learn from what you write, and often try out the suggested commands so that I may remember them when a related issue comes up on my VortexBox.

Thanks,
-mike

— Comment #23 from Adrian Smith <triode1@btinternet.com> 2010-03-14 16:40:38 PDT — Ralph, try something like the following – this seems to fix it on the player end for me.  Just allow the http thread to keep spinning at a low rate if there is nothing received from the socket.

— src/slimaudio/slimaudio_http.c      (revision 129)

+++ src/slimaudio/slimaudio_http.c      (working copy)

@@ -293,7 +293,19 @@

static void http_recv(slimaudio_t *audio) {

        char buf[AUDIO_CHUNK_SIZE];

+       struct timeval timeOut;

+       fd_set fdread;

+       timeOut.tv_sec  = 0;

+       timeOut.tv_usec = 100*1000; /* wait for up to 100ms */

+

+       FD_ZERO(&fdread);

+       FD_SET(audio->streamfd, &fdread);

+

+       if (select(audio->streamfd + 1, &fdread, NULL, &fdread,

+ &timeOut) == 0)

{

+               return;

+       }

+

        int n = recv(audio->streamfd, buf, AUDIO_CHUNK_SIZE, 0);

        /* n == 0 http stream closed by server */

— Comment #25 from Ralph Irving <ralph_irving@hotmail.com> 2010-03-16 04:29:28 PDT — Adrian,

I tested your suggested server side change in comment 21 using 7.4r30377 against squeezeslave r95 and r116 mentioned in the bug and both work flawlessly.  Hopefully the change eventually makes it into the code.

The non-blocking change you provided for squeezeslave fixes the problem as well.  Revision 133 includes the fix and I've released test builds for Win32 and OSX.  I listened to internet streams most of the day yesterday without issue and would consider the problem fixed.

You mentioned squeezeplay in a couple of your comments, not sure if that was a typo or if you've been seeing a similiar issue with squeezeplay as well.

Thanks again for your help.

Ralphy.

Post edited 4:49 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen

HalfBit said:

When you wrote Max about hiccup, did you ask regarding the possibility of VBP sync?

I appreciate the explanations you include with problem analysis and solutions on this forum.  Even when I do not have a particular problem, I learn from what you write, and often try out the suggested commands so that I may remember them when a related issue comes up on my VortexBox.

Thanks,
-mike

Yes; I asked Max about syncing VortexBox Player with hardware Squeezebox players as well as about perfect gapless playback in VBP. I haven't heard back from him on either issue.

As Andrew mentioned, VBP is completely different code than squeezeslave, so squeezeslave fixes do not apply.  VBP can handle switching between an Internet stream and the local music library without hanging, and does not have this squeezeslave bug.

As for syncing squeezeslave with hardware Squeezebox players: I'm not sure this works.  I tried syncing squeezeslave with a Duet Receiver a while back, and couldn't get it to work. You might post on the Slim Devices forum to see if this can be done — ralphy should know the answer.

Glad you find my posts informative!

Post edited 5:27 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen
Post edited 5:50 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen
Post edited 6:10 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen
Post edited 6:13 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen
Post edited 6:23 pm – March 16, 2010 by Ron Olsen

HalfBit said:

1. Logitech-supported players on VortexBox sync with
    hardware players.  Is that correct? 

2. Logitech-supported players previously allowed switching sources from        local to Internet radio without haulting playback.  Is that correct? 

3. Did you read and understand Ralph Irving's Comment 25 (above)
    to the end?

4. Did you read that Ralph tested the suggested server side change  and 
    the change worked flawlessly.

5. When you write that "this doesn't change anything" does that mean that
    there will be no support on VortexBox for synchronizing hardware and
    software players by any means?

6. Please report progress, if any, on VortexBox Player sync with hardware.

Let me try to answer some of these questions, Mike.

There are four software players I know about: VortexBox Player, Squeezeslave, Softsqueeze, and Squeezeplay. Only Squeezeplay is supported by Logitech; the others are third-party apps.

1. As far as I know, none of them can sync reliably with hardware players.  See http://forums.slimdevices.com/…..hp?t=76131 and http://forums.slimdevices.com/…..hp?t=74713.

A quote from the last thread:

"To get the music to play from your computer you need to install player software such as SoftSqueeze, squeezeslave, or Squeezeplay. Even after you do that, however, perfect sync between a hardware player like the Boom and a software player is not guaranteed. It may work okay for you, or it may not. There are too many variables involved in the pc playback (eg, sound card driver latencies, etc) that the server cannot control. This may not be a problem for you if the pc and the Boom are far enough apart that you don't hear both at the same time."

Here's a Slim Devices wiki about sync: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/in…..ronization

A quote from this wiki:

 "Trying to synchronize [a hardware player] with a software player (e.g. with Squeezeplay) may result in only a loose sync. This is due to the buffering and inaccuracy of position reporting by various subsystems between the software player and the sound-card output. You might be lucky."

Softsqueeze may be your best bet to sync with hardware players. See this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/…..hp?t=62060

But even the Softsqueeze author has found cases where sync doesn't work.

2. VBP can switch between Internet streams and local library without hanging. Squeezeslave could do it with SBS 7.3.4, and will be able to do it with SBS 7.4.2 if the fixes you mentioned are applied.  Don't know about Softsqueeze or Squeezeplay.

3 & 4. Only apply to squeezeslave, not the other players.

5. and 6.  Fixing SBS/VortexBox Player/mpd to sync with hardware players is something Max Kellerman is best able do, if it's even possible.  Best course of action is to wait until I hear back from him.

If you want to experiment with Squeezeslave, Softsqueeze, or Squeezeplay, go ahead, and report back your results.  I'm sure you can get help on the Slim Devices forum for any problems you run into.

Ron,

I believe the slight sync mismatch you discribe will be acceptable.  If it's fairly simple, I  will download the latest version of Squeezeslave, build it on my VBA, and use it with my Squeezebox Duets.  I will appreciate any DL, build, and install advice you may offer.

Regarding sync of audio in generall, I find that with time (several hours) sync drifts off so that it's noticable, and if I reset our Cisco SRW2024 switch, sync is restored.  I understand that it is off topic, but do you understand why sync drifts and why reset restores it?  I thought SBS and the Duet receivers were supposed to monitor network latency and correct as it changes.  My goal in understanding is to somehow automate the restore-sync process.  As it is, I power-cycle the SRW2024.

Given the success with SqueezeSlave I'm confident that in time, VBP will sync and play gapless files as well and probably sound better than SqueezeSlave.

Thanks for your work and the follow-up,
-mike

Thank you Ron,

I will do as you suggest, but I'm going to wait until our music library is validated by MusicIP.  It looks like that will be three more days.

-mike